atom feed20 messages in org.xwiki.devsRe: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the...
FromSent OnAttachments
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 2:04 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 25, 2014 2:39 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 3:03 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 3:31 am 
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" DelhumeauSep 25, 2014 3:41 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 4:16 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 4:28 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:01 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:06 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:12 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:14 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:35 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 6:50 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 7:13 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 7:49 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:07 pm 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
Guillaume LerougeSep 30, 2014 2:56 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 30, 2014 4:20 am 
Denis GervalleSep 30, 2014 5:03 am 
Subject:Re: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the "create wiki" and "create space" actions
From:Guillaume Lerouge (guil@xwiki.com)
Date:Sep 29, 2014 6:35:00 am
List:org.xwiki.devs

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < vali@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guil@xwiki.com> wrote:

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < vali@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we

re-add

it

we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

With this logic, why do we have the 'Edit Class' in the same 'Edit' menu? We should be able to edit the Class just from the page that lists the existing classes.

I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. I never suggested moving an action that is related to a given page away from that page.

If class "a" is stored in page "A", I don't see why the "Edit class a" button should be anywhere but on page "A". Theoretically, if XClasses were not a specific concept in XWiki we wouldn't need the multi-select "Edit" button (a single "Edit" button would automatically trigger class edition on a XWiki page holding a XClass definition), but that's another debate entirely.

However, I don't see how creating the wiki "SomeWiki" would be related to page "A", which is why I'm suggesting moving the button some place else.

The logic is that I want to be able to perform RAPIDLY an action, without needing to go on a particular page. Wikis/Space/Pages are BASIC entities in XWiki, is not something optional or rarely used.

How often do you need to RAPIDLY create a new wiki, an action which takes routinely takes several minutes to complete?

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks, Caty

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the

Homepages/Indexes)

is

specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <enyg@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < guil@xwiki.com> wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < enyg@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new

location

of

the

Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it

makes

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e.

harder

to

find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases

where

users

created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know

that

a

space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I

see

at

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to

search

for

existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create

might

be

on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above

with

the

"reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options

in

the

list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < vali@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

We improved the things a bit by implementing http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit

value

of

'Add'.

Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page)

in

the

menu

is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from

anywhere

in

the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a

consistent

way

of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar

to

this

idea

was the Explorer proposal

http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp

Another related issue to this subject is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < guil@xwiki.com

wrote:

Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love

the

new

look a

lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of

the

"Create"

button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create

space"

options

from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of

wikis

on

this

page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the

"Create

space"

button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions,

they

would

be

done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since

creating a

new

wiki

is

much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page,

the

action

should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me

because

of

the

new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion

about

this?

Thanks,