atom feed20 messages in org.xwiki.devsRe: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the...
FromSent OnAttachments
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 2:04 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 25, 2014 2:39 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 3:03 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 3:31 am 
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" DelhumeauSep 25, 2014 3:41 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 4:16 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 4:28 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:01 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:06 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:12 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:14 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:35 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 6:50 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 7:13 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 7:49 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:07 pm 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
Guillaume LerougeSep 30, 2014 2:56 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 30, 2014 4:20 am 
Denis GervalleSep 30, 2014 5:03 am 
Subject:Re: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the "create wiki" and "create space" actions
From:Eduard Moraru (
Date:Sep 30, 2014 4:20:47 am

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <> wrote:

Hi Edy,

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <> wrote:

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <> wrote:


So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in but if we



we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by



strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same



consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

Big -1 for this!

It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install whatever applications they want. You do have to consider the fact that you may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration.

I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day that

Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not empowering users.

Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not

diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a wiki (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong consequences".

I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action. Look at how we use it ourselves on the family of sites for instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new pages? is a knowledge base flavor that is not open to the public, i.e. as opposed to something like wikia[1] or any other open wiki hosting provider. It is not a good example. Don`t forget that XWiki is, after all and among many others, a wiki. You are talking here about the default behavior and features and, IMO, by default it should respect its nature.

Perhaps a better example would be an intranet where people collaborate on projects, creating a wiki for each new project.

Anyway, to put it short, all the valid reasons for which we went along with "Workspaces". Are you suggesting it was a bad idea and we should have just kept the old wiki manager which was perfectly fine for creating use-cases like the ones you describe?


There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data points.

Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the

above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you do need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.

Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list of items of the same type that already exist.

According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing. <

That was the whole point of the Add button, to mask all this complexity and keep it away from the main UI. If you ask me, we risk failing a bit at this with the new App Bar/Panel, but that's another topic. :)

If you read again my message, my only focus was on CRUD operations on XWiki's model, which is what we were doing until this point and which I would really like to keep doing since it is, IMO, the best way to go.

Thanks, Eduard



Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.

Thanks, Eduard

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the



specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.



Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <


On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <> wrote:


On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <> wrote:

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new




Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO



basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e.



find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases



created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know



space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you



someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest



user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We



something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist.



sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the



that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I



least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to



existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create



on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we



to implement something on the lines of what I have described above



"reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create




list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that

for a


gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard





---------- [1]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <> wrote:


We improved the things a bit by implementing Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit




Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create





is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from



the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do



I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a



of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something





was the Explorer proposal

Another related issue to this subject is, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <


Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love



look a

lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location




button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and




from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of




page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with




button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions,




done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since

creating a




much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new




should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me




new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion