atom feed20 messages in org.xwiki.devsRe: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the...
FromSent OnAttachments
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 2:04 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 25, 2014 2:39 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 3:03 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 25, 2014 3:31 am 
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" DelhumeauSep 25, 2014 3:41 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 25, 2014 4:16 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 4:28 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:01 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:06 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:12 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 6:14 am 
Guillaume LerougeSep 29, 2014 6:35 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 6:50 am 
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)Sep 29, 2014 7:13 am 
Jeremie BOUSQUETSep 29, 2014 7:49 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:07 pm 
Eduard MoraruSep 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
Guillaume LerougeSep 30, 2014 2:56 am 
Eduard MoraruSep 30, 2014 4:20 am 
Denis GervalleSep 30, 2014 5:03 am 
Subject:Re: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the "create wiki" and "create space" actions
From:Denis Gervalle (
Date:Sep 30, 2014 5:03:12 am

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <> wrote:

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <> wrote:


So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in but if we



we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

Big -1 for this!

It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install whatever applications they want.

That would be great, but does the user get the point, this is far from being the case actually. From a user stand point, explaining the difference between a wiki and a space is not easy. I have experiment that again this morning, and I have a very knowledgeable person in front of me. After presenting the structure, the question, "why do we need multiple wikis, since we have spaces ?", followed a few moment later by "Does the search box at the top search into all wikis ?".

You do have to consider the fact that you may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration.

Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a wiki (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong consequences".

Because this is an infrequent action with strong consequences in the way you organize your information. From the sysadmin POV, it means a new DB, with potential consequences on its backup and replication procedures. From the user POV, it is not the simple click of a button, after answering curious questions about user access, it goes to the distribution wizard, and, if she persistent, finally reach a new situation, where the she have to understand she is in a subwiki, and that all operation from there, like using the search box (the same search box, from his POV), will be scoped by that subwiki. Frankly, I do not understand this could not be called an "an infrequent action with strong consequences", compare to page creation (and space creation which is basically the same).

Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you do need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.

I have not seen any burying in Guillaume proposal, just a leveling of frequent actions and really less frequent one.

That said, I doubt a lot of wiki will have that option available since most admin will limit the create_wiki right to knowledgeable users. And even, if the right is largely open, I doubt a lot of users will be persistent enough to fully finish the still complex process of creating a wiki. For sure, they will not do so very often, and therefore, that option will be in their way all the time for finally very casual usage.

This is particularly true since this is the first option in the list. IMO the order of that list should be reversed: Page, Space, Wiki, from smallest to largest, from most frequent to less frequent, which was the order AFAIR in the initial Flamingo proposal. In regards to your CRUD principle, while you are fighting to keep the creation of wiki, why don't you expect to be able to add comments, attachment, object, classes, tags from the same button Add button ? These are frequent actions, that it would be nice to have there, and again was also (partly) in the initial Flamingo proposal. While the same proposal has never mentioned the Wiki in the Add menu.

Finally, I am wondering why the proposal on which we agreed has been so much reworked during implementation.

Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.

Thanks, Eduard

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the



specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.



Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <> wrote:


On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <> wrote:

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new




Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it


basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e.



find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases



created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know



space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I



least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to



existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create



on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above



"reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options



list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard





---------- [1]

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <> wrote:


We improved the things a bit by implementing Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit




Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page)




is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from



the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a



of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar




was the Explorer proposal

Another related issue to this subject is, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <


Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love



look a

lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of



button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create



from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of




page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the



button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions,




done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since

creating a




much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page,



should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me




new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion